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come without its cost. he can have no responsibility at any bank without her mission. why? tell me why. he lived an ex trafegan life, he said with his money. but he could not make the case, prosecutor wanted to rest tir case by getting on his case, making a federal case over things like $15,000 umbrella stands and $6,000 shower curtains. never mind that he told me he nothing to do with the purchases his then wife did. she is long gone now, so too is his money. now. maybe all of his money. consider this.

between dennis and his co o defendant cfo . here is what we know. the government building his case on the life style, not only unprecedented but unbeforing and unfair, it started with what i think was a concerted war on wealth, and the wealthy, to this day knows no bounds. catsimatidises -- fat cats and greedy ceos, it seems the rich and successful are all bad. they must have gotten that way illegally. we're now taught to distrust the successful in this country, if they get too much so, knock them down a peg or two. this is why banks cough of tens

of millions in finds for behavior that government 1 encouraged. oil ceos are routinely dragged to washington for reportedly obscene profits that are t be discouraged. i studied kozlowski's case closely, i don't think he did anything wrong. that is not right, that not good, i don't think that is american. but that is me. katherine neil who knows the book on dennis, her book will be out on dennis, a great title, "tes down the lion," what do you make of this? he will pay for this in freedom for his life. >> he is. he is paying and will continue to pay a pretty severe price for

being a successful ceo who made and spent a lot of money. neil: his lawyer saying a much, a statement from alan lewis, stating that done is kozloswki was convicted of grand larceny for stealing bonuses that were authorized by a all right at bonus plan -- a contractual bonus pla and disclosed by him. nonetheless, given that mr. kozloswki was convicted, and serving his sentence we're gratified b the decision to parole, what do you make of that, even now still insisting we did nothing wrong. >> well, i don't know what mr. kozloswki's position is at this time about his guilt or innocence. he was convicted by a jury, that was never overturned on appeal. but i spend two and a half years

emersed in this case, i agree with you, i dn't see the crimes. neil: i guess i'm asking, do you think he became more of a target because, he lived a nice life, there are a lot of people and ceos who live grand life styles they have a big bunch of money, he seems to live grand life style on steroids, that brought a lot of attention. >> it did. and i agree, he became a very public big spender, and he did a lot of that spending in new york. the largest media market in the world. he became the darling of the media f a while, t quickly, almost overnight, the media villainized him, and his spending habits became akin to criminal activity. it is unfortune at that his success was turned, his accomplishments now know more

an a mere footnote of his life, he is now known as and will be remembered as a criminal who took millions of dollars from the company, that h devoted 27 years of his life to. neil: always in these cases, by the way you have no connection to dennis kozloswki. much was made of whether to despite his salary, everything and else he additionally took money that was meant ffr the company. because that will be the suspicion, if you live too grand a life style, it can't be on already approved $100 million salary and pay package we have for you, you must be getting it from other sources, it can be a tough thing to prove.

so, is there a message or a warning to future ceos, and future -- fat cats? lay low orhat? >> absolutely, when my book comes out in january, kozloswki's life is a cautionary tale, kno anyone who is a corpoe executive or who wants to be ba corporat executive should look at the life of kozloswki. this this case, the board of havwasgenerous, they paid cos ki many would argue you they overpaid him. i looked at all of the evidence, that was presented at trial, corporate documents all transactions for the bonuses that he is -- has been convicted

of stealing, those transactions were on the book and records of tyco. none was secreted, it was all conducted in ordinary course of business. audited by one of the most reported accounting firms in the world 92 tha. neil: that's right. >> it seems perhaps therefore a pay dispute between kozloswki and the tyco board at the time that should have been settled between the parties, at worse taken care of through civil litigation. but this happened post enron just after enron imploded. neil: weird timing on that. >> a hostile environment. prosecutors were looking for the next enron. and the next high profile executive that could be prosecuted and held up as the scapegoat. i am afraid that is what happened in this case. it was a bad time for corporate executes, kozloswki was among

highest paid at the time. it made h an easy target. neil: i am really esighted about this -- excited about this book, i hope you can come down when it comes out thank you it will be a page turner. >> thank you uneil. neil: all right to a former corporate titan who served hid time even after prosecutor failed to nab him. when fed got a hold of former health south ceo for a second trial they did the same thing, they used his life style to make his point, he must be doing something wrong becausely had a lot of plenty to supposedly get his way. charging he must have fought his way to a state board for alabama. no one saw any suitcases of money going back and forth. mr. scrushy is joining us now after serving 6 years in prison. richard do you look at this case, and now dennis kozloswki

joining you as a free man on the outside, and say what a pattern here in. >> well, certainly, after hearing what i just heard from the about the book. and investigation that wonderful lady did, there is tremendous concern -- you know what you make a lot of money, build a $40 billion company it is not unusual for boa to reward with you a substantial bonus or income and benefits, that is common in this country. if we look at every ceo in america you would see large salaries, i looked at top 10 paid guys in the last year, they made hundredsf millions. neil: what do you think makes them a target? >> first of all y have a media

issue, many newspapers, a loot of jealous people are looking for wealthy people to hate on, they are searching them out, and media beats them down, prosecutors beat them down, even plaintiffs go after them, when you have money you are a target. everyonements your money. go build your own million dollar company, right. they want your money, they come after your money, they make a big dl out of the fact have you more than one house or a bought a boat, many of the investment that you see people like dennis, myself and others make in homes and whatnot. what do you do with the cash or money when you are successful and you build the companies? you invest istate, and in property and in maybe antique cars or other antiques, things that will go up in value, it is a matter of spreading your wealth, and putting it in different places to maintain it for your family, that then is a targ it, a target for those who

would like to take it away. certainly we are seen that over and over again. you know i was hit during that whole enron period as well, i spent 6 months in trial. not one sled o sleferdz piece oe against me. they spend millions against me. they believes continue to try to milk you. neil: any advice for guys who might be in a pickle like you? just lay low or don't make too much of a scene? >> i think i have been writing a book, you probably know that, on building a billion dollar company. i am finishing it up right now. i spend a chapter o talking about, that i think if i had it to do over again i would have spent less money, you can't take it with you when you die, you can't spend it or enjoy it either.

i gave tens of millions away. over 6 year period, if you look at money i gave away out of a bonus i received, i gave almost 50% of my money away to charity. you don't get credit for that when they come after you, i gave more money away than i spent on my money, but that does not come back to you, they still want to attack you. i wouldry do it, i would -- redoute it i would be less extravagant. you are a target, they do come afternoon you. neil: richard, an amazing story, thank you very much, i look forward to the book, rich affidavit crushy. richard scrushy. >> thank you, neil. neil: you know, when it comes to business hateems -- hadens we're business hateems -- hadens we're no longer in top 5 or no every day we're working to be an even better company -

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in inquality, it is well past the time to raise the minimum wage. >> president push foege raise minimum wage to past $10 an hour, addressing some of the inequality he said, at a time when u.s. is not a haven for business, top 5 finishers in th, no united states, you have to go way down that list to almost number to see unid states represented. i believe mozambique is ahead of us -- kidding. former house speaker dennis hastert not surprised. with that antibusiness tone that continues. he wants to help. >> you find bes are creating minimum wage, that is a small business, gloriest, shoe shops, the mom and pop stores. and they are the people that bridge in en entry level teenag,

people looking for a job, housewives for part time, senior citizens that want to make their way, not depend on social security. these are entry level jobs, isn't jobs, when you raise the minimum wage you a lot of those jobs go away, the small businesses can't afford them. neil: the pattern -- i was getting at, whether intentional or not this perception of that have and have-nots, those who have itr doing well, in how not to be trusted. it feeds a narrative what do you make it was. >> this dodge in my opinion -- administration in my opinion does not get it, people who create jobs are p entrepreneurs people who have a capital to put

it? they are saying because of increasing regulation, and unknown out there what this administration is going to try to do on tax policy, people are puttg their money in gold overseas, and they don't trust this administration. so -- >> the world has the same view. they say through this "forbes" study businesses that world is their oyster, they can park their money or businesses or plans anywhere they do not see us fitting into that tragedy, ireland, yes, u.s., no. >> absolutely. and a flick of your on a keyboard, you can invest, put your money, run a business overseas from sitting at home, and if you don't know what your stability is and the economic consequences of political actions here, you put your money someplace else. we're stagnant.

neil: amazing, thank you dennis hastert. uncle sam, have a pint and drown your sorrows, ireland and others are doing better. but we want to pursue why these countries are the draws and we are not, that is what is important, i want to focus on why that is the case. after this. as a business owner, i'm constantly putting out fires. so i deserve a small business credit card with amazing rewards. with the spark cascard from capital one, i get 2% cash back on ery purchase, every day. i break my back around here. finally soone's recognizing me with unlimited rewards! meetings start at 11, cindy. [ male announcer get the spark business card from capital one. choose 2% cash back or double miles on every purchase, every d. what's in your wallet? i need your timesheets, larry!

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neil neil: whole idea whether we have a war on success, or at least -- dee dee is here said it would appear that way, rick unger said it would appear not.

>> rich guys always do that, they talk about social implement i know you love that. you are a socialist, rick. which sun fortunate. -- sun muc is unfortunate. >> we're on this list of top country that do business, number 14, how in the world? neil: amazing "forbes" looking at all sorts of factors, ireland is number one, new zealand. they made a lot of harry potter movies. >> we're4 because of obama administration, highest corporate tax that is a killer. >> other country showcase rate. neil: why are we 14. >> i don't know if i can. neil: you better. >> what is surprising i would never take issue with forbing

magazine, but thesere country that have socialized medicine provide everyone at birth, every one of those country health care is a right not a privilege. >> what are they doing right? >> they are letting business do business. >> and government getting out of the way. >> no government is taking responsibility, they are take -- >> 7 of those have a lot of benefits that we're fighting for here that could ease burden on company. >> no, i think that government is -- anvil around the necks of these businesses. neil: by the way with health care you would think that be the draw to at least take us out of the top 20, maybe to top 10. >> we have not gone where they are. >> it has already been a job

killer. >> none of these country have an obamacare health care system. neil: we are 14. >> they have single -- t getting those things off the backs of businesses. neil: then we rockets to 13? >> who knows where to. neil: we've been rocketing down. >> keep in mind, number one on ireland. ireland has an unemployment rate almost double what ours i maybe business is doing great. neil: well off the highs, real estate is rebounding there are a lot of factors, these come in waves, but we've been droppin like a stone. >> people have been listening to your advice. neil: when i said, go have a fin59in59-pint in du dublin, i n

stay in dublin. >> everything obama does today, the speech -- >> the steam was rolling. not saying -- i am saying what is it about o country that is increasingly over the years, and presidents, n wowing other countries. >> one mor factor, if you look at country high on the list, very small gdp, small economy, to run. you get into a bigger economy situation, you didn't see china on the list either. you get into the big -- >> you think it is apples and oranges. >> i think it could be 92 your "forbes" subscription is cancelled. >> in middle class, in states where i am from, they have trouble with small businesses now because of the tax codes. we're printing money. >> how m many are they really paying, what are they paying.

neil: 29%. >> more than everyone else that is not good. >> how many of largest companies pay zero. neil: also those pay full price, oil companies pay full price, you can average it out, but there is something big going on, psychologically this is a stain that building up over theears, high profi cases got it rolling but i tell you there is something going on. >> i agree. that is why i blame obama administration. i am not trying -- >> i blame rick. >> i blame you. >> we have a since of entitlement. >> where are we going with wonder woman? >> to dc . neil: asking twitter to help pick its 2013 person of the

year, we went to twitter to vote cavuto person of the year. one vote. >> ooh. >> the results, winner, important of the year neil cavuto. but for "time" magazine not that easy. public vote turning social media public vote turning social media on

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cyrus -- media research saying that there is no way that mileyy cyrus will be this year's choice. i'm here to tell you this is the death of civilization as we know it. what do you say? >> they are going to do that, it might be re controversial than putting someone else on the cover. they did something other than shaking their butts on mtv so that is certainly part of it. >> that's exactly what is wrong with society, they think that this person -- i think you could argue. she went on mtv to make a disgrace of herself on purpose

and she has gone on to do that on other awards shows and she's become america's number one clown. >> when they add them all up, they say they have to give it to her. you are saying tat they could give themselves a cornea? >> stop publishing a print magazine. they are paying no attention, "newsweek" is trying to come back from the dead like a zombie episode. it's just a disgrace. people don't look at this as much of anything anymore. this will only double and triple that. >> it has come out as the list of the best and most affordable

colleges in the best places to live, they do have issues that garner interest. so maybe that is what this is all about? >> you could absolutely put miley cyrus on the cover on the wiki which is the center of a cultural controversy. everyone understands that time magazine has been done on the cover and whatever. and it is just simply, when you add this as person of the year, it is almost as silly as the year they decided that it was all of us. >> this would be that lame, i think. at least you and i are more worthy than miley cyrus. neil: she is jealous of me. i do know that. thank you so much. we are all going to say, there goes wrong.

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a look at some of the gimmicks that they are coming out with. but i really think that this might be going a little bit too far. you have to ask yourself why women they call this a stress monitor or something like that. this isn't sexist. we tried to make men's underwear, but the problem is for thesepoor nerds is that the underwear was too far from the men's hearts, supposedly. so they nixed that idea be one you are being a little bit crude. so what if is this thing really does prent me from overheating and microsoft they

might've just sumbled on this. >> we know that obama was very interested in this and he can have the served up from the tsa, who is probably out there thinking about this concept and twirling their tape measures. neil: you could be right, microsoft's cup runneth over. >> if they are going to do it, i hope that they go out and make it light up, because i think that would be an added bonus. neil: you are right.

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neil: all right, th is something we have been doing. and we want to remind yyu what is going on, we are focusing on our unhealthy state series. it is that the at the state level that you can't get onto the exchange of the state doesn't have an exchange or its

exchange doesn't match her other states exchange and it can be a mass. today, hawai five oh, knocked out. after just 200 enrollees and katie palich here with us tonight to talk about this. >> it is compounding the problem. i'm here to say aloha. so we are seeing a lot of big problems in hawaii that we have seen all over the country, also the federal exchange, we gave $205 million to why from federal taxpayers to implement the exchanges. only 200 have and will properly because of the exchange's. neil: was the website of the source of the problem?

>> it's a combination. some also built the federal exchange as you can imagine why it's not working. the company also has a history trying to uild the tax system in hawaii and nothing more. and so at about $750 per enrollee in hawaii at this point. neil: summer working through their own exchanges and what have you. in time will heal a lot of it. what do you find? >> i don't think so. you can talk about the website in one issue, you can talk about it in another. we are seeing that the premiums are increasing by 22% for the interesting thing is that 8% of the population is uninsured and the majority people are insured through their employer. as we have create a system where we are spending 205 million federal dollars in hawaii to enroll a percent of

the population, with only 257 people have actually signed up. so once we see this -- nationally, it the majority is don't want to sigorsing that trs well. be. neil: the republican governors aren't going along, they don't match and this has happened other states it really doesn't matter. >> it is a mess because you talk about the government trying to create a marketplace and a system that didn't work. so we have seen problems in hawaii and oregon with this and paper applicaons try to give everyone state of the art health care. we are seeing these situations happen, not just isolated cases like the administration would like to believe. so once again, it comes back to we're spending a lot of federal money on the exchange and it's not working well. they are hiring the same people and now there's a lot of question about cronyism that has

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neii: in news today, the dodge durango sales soared 31% since ron burgundy started doing ads for them. other companies could be getting the same burndy blues. i mean, all the automakers have big sales last month. what do you think? >> you know, chrysler was number one, they saw a 16% jump year-over-year in november's numbers. and this is part of the strength of viral social media, ron burgundy and the income and franchise is a genius. and the number twos spot is highly anticipated. so yes, i think it's a smart move for chrysler. the problem is that chrysler is

owned by fiat, which none of us would buy directly, therefore -- you know. neil: the. neil: is that an anti-italian comment? >> no, definitely not. >> b1 is interesting. because she doesn't get the whole ron burgundy thank him even when i do a dead on burgundy impression. she says that i don't get it. but a lot of these companies are latching onto him. so is there a method to this? >> he's recognizable. i don't know how to tell you this, but auto sales are kind of a big deal this year. they are up in the double digits in some cases come acrs the board, not just with chrysler. >> we have seen strong sales,

yes or no? >> i think so, that is what ron burgundy says, and i'm buying it. interest rates at all-time lows, financing being released to the consumer. we didn't have this couple of years ago when auto sales wee slow. neil: just please keep going. in the meantime, abercrombie after the plunging capital, strongly urging them to ditch mike jeffries. the same ceo that says a large people shouldn't shop at his doors. many people would take offense. so what do you think? >> well, he was actually pretty vocal about this. it wasn't something that was like behind the curtain. he has been on record, he has

said that some of the kids are all american. whatever that means. and he alienated a huge group of people. abercrombie and fitch was hot at one point, but this is a case where they have lost their cool and i think it would be a godsend for him to move on and let abercrbie may be reinvent itself for being more american and not just the pretty ones. neil: the dangerous thing is saying what you're thinking. a that is sort of like the unwritten and unspen rule. they're like the master race customers. so you think it and it's like you don't say it. >> it might've been. i thought that the cool kids

shopped at target. if you look across this, let's look at american eagle and they have all been killed this year. it is a regional problem and it speaks to what they are struggling to. they have these, age nine, some of these other companies that are bouncing back and there's a lot of competition. you can't have these brain lasses. neil: this is the stuff you guys will be watching tomorrow. and some will pounce on it when you do. what do you think? >> i hate to be the debbie downer, but some people don't follow the job support. what it does is it tracks the and i want to see what corporations are laying off, and

i want to see if they are continuing to lessen their layoff. and it's picking up steam, and it certainly not off the map. neil: we are seeing something here. >> yes, i think we need to look at the real nmbers. it's just like actual companies telling what they are laying off four. it's real information. and i think it's a little bit part of the economy. the good news is that the layoffs are down from last year. and we will see that trend continues into the holiday season. >> your point about jobs is a good one. especially with gdp, a total output of the u.s. economy. and so here's the thing, we all

have to look good for that. the number is going to be good. yes, the economy, like the jobs report, is like that as well. >> youention the spending numbers. we hear how people have been lowering retail sales so far, i don't know how it's going to end up. including whether the consumer is limping along and early making ends meet. what do you think? >> i think that the higher and is doing very well and w see a lot of those higher and companies do just fine. the midd and is doing a little less than the lower and is doing even less. and i think the best speaks to this,. >> is the consumer out of it are coming back? >> consumers are stable. again, i think there's a lot of

moving parts here anwhat scott said is part of this. amazon, ebay, these are the ones who are smart with to 325,. liz: "money" with melissa francis is next. melissa: an unbelievable deal for insurance companies putting your money in the middle. basically the white house saying, guesstimate your costs and we will pay you in good faith. oh, and then we'll go back to review the numbers later. from your wallet to the insurance companies pockets. even when they say it's not, it is always about money. melissa: so insurance companies certainly have been put through the wringer by obamacare's failed rollout. but looks like they are finally going to get their pay day courtesy of you. since the health care website can't calculate subsidies